3 Clips Re-Air: Darknet Diaries

3 Clips Re-Air:  Darknet Diaries
Audience
3 Clips Re-Air: Darknet Diaries
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Episode October 27, 2022 00:34:36

Hosted By

Matt Medeiros Stuart Barefoot

Show Notes

As work on new episodes continues, we're going to take a trip into our archives this week and listen in on a 3 Clips Episode. 

 

In the meantime, we need help with a story we're working on. Do you use stock media for your projects? Do you create stock media for ohters to use? As a listener can you tell the difference between projects that use stock media and shows that comission art? We want to hear from you.

Reach out directly stuart@castos.com 

 

Cyber crime, hacking and the dark side of the internet. In many ways, Darknet Diaries seems like a scary podcast and at times it can be. But it’s not scary in the sense that you need a lot of technical knowledge to enjoy it. That’s because Jack Rhysider is a brilliant storyteller. He takes really complicated subjects like hacking and makes them palpable. So if you don’t know anything about the Darknet, don’t worry. Jack is the perfect guide for a world that might seem foreign for many of us.

LEARN MORE ABOUT CASTOS

3 Clips is a Castos Original Series. Castos provides tools for public and private podcasts and believes podcasters should own their turf to provide the best possible audience experience. Visit castos.com 

Inside This Episode

You can listen to all previous episodes of Darknet Diaries on their website darknetdiaries.com

The episode featured is 109: Team Poison

Follow Jack Rhysider on Twitter @JackRhysider

This episode was produced and edited by Stuart Barefoot @smallleaguestu

About the Host

Evo Terra has the dubious honor of releasing the 40th podcast… ever. Other notable podcasting elements from his past include authoring Podcasting For Dummies and Expert Podcasting Practices for Dummies, launching and running one of the first large podcast networks, building a successful strategic podcast consultancy, and is a celebrated keynote speaker on stages around the world. He’s also done a bunch of really, really weird stuff that Google still shows.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hey, Stuart here while we work on new episodes for audience, we're gonna pull from our archives again. If you've never listened to our other show, three clips, A, you probably should, and B, you can do so by going to three clips podcast.com or anywhere you get your podcasts. We're gonna listen to a season two episode featuring Jack Reciter from Dark Net Diaries. Jack is a phenomenal storyteller, and Dark Net Diaries has been very successful, attracted millions of downloads over the years. It's a great example of a show that's pretty niche while also appealing to a bigger audience. How does Jack do it? Well, you've gotta listen to find out, but spoiler alert, it's good storytelling. But before we listen in, I'm gonna ask for some help with an audience episode that's right from you. You can help out. We're currently working on a story about the use of stock media and projects. Do you use stock media for your work? Do you make stock media for others as a listener? Can you tell the difference between stock media and something that's been commissioned? We'd love to hear from you. You could reach out to me personally via email@stewartcasto.com. I'm one of those people that checks their email like every five minutes, so you'll probably hear back pretty quickly. Okay, onto the three clips. Episode at First, Err Ital, March 7th, 2022. It was hosted by Evo Tara and was produced and edited by me. Enjoy. Speaker 1 00:01:26 There was something I think Malcolm Gladwell was, was talking about when writing whether or not you're gonna bring lingo into the story or not. And I think he suggested something like, if you're kind of clueing them into the culture and getting them familiar with like how people talk, then it might be useful because then they kind of feel part of the group and they can talk in that way. But if you're just throwing lingo at them just because there's no actual reason, like it doesn't really help them feel like part of the culture or something, it's just kind of confusing, then you could probably leave it out. And so things like this go through my mind. My name's Jack Re Cider. I'm the podcast creator for the show, Dark Night Diaries. Speaker 3 00:02:07 Hey, it's Evo, and this is Three Clips, a Casto original. As always, our goal with three clips is to demystify the creative process behind great podcasts and to inspire greater creativity in your work to help with that. Today I'm chatting with Jack Re Cider about his podcast, Dark Net Diaries. Now, ostensibly Dark Net Diaries is a podcast about the world of hackers, cyber crime, and quite literally the dark side of the internet. But don't let that scare you. No, wait, actually, some of this stuff should scare you because it's downright scary. I mean, don't let the geeky stuff throw you. Jack is a masterful storyteller, and he cares deeply about telling stories in a way that anyone who owns a computer or heck even a smartphone can relate to. So even if you don't get the cyber, but are fascinated by what goes on in the dark and secret corners of the web, Dark Net Diaries is a show for you. And on top of that, Jack cares deeply about podcasting. If you've ever asked a question on one of the podcasting subreddits, there's a very good chance that Jack has interacted with you. That's how he and I first got connected several years ago. He's good people and has a fascinating podcast. To Boot Speaker 3 00:03:35 Three Clips is a Casto original series. Casto helps podcasters like you host amazing shows and monetize premium content all within our easy to use podcast dashboard. If you're looking for a team to help get your next podcast project off the ground, look no further than Casto Productions. Hey, we help make this show too. Email us hello@casto.com with any questions or visit three clips podcast.com/casto for more information. And now here's my conversation with Jack about his podcast, Dark Net Diaries. I think I wanna start talking about a common trope in podcasting that I've seen most new podcasters fall into. And that is that they quit after seven episodes. It's either too hard or they became disillusioned, whatever the thing is now. Now you went twice that long before something happened, 14 episodes when I'm guessing the realities of podcasting might have hit you because that's when your episode frequency dropped from fortnightly to monthly. But then after six episodes, you switch back to an every other weekly or every other week release. So what's up with that? Speaker 1 00:05:00 The good question, what happened to me is that I started out with a cadence that was just too much of a commitment, and it was, it was difficult for me to continue going every two weeks. And I think, so the three biggest struggles that podcasters face are, number one, creating a great show that people are gonna appreciate and like, and want more of. Uh, number two, uh, getting the word spread marketing. And number three is, uh, sustaining it, which can be wrapped up into monetizing, right? If if somebody's paying you to do it, you could probably do it for a while, right? So sustaining it, and that was kind of what I was struggling with. And what's funny is that I actually quit my job and at the same time went from every two weeks to once a month because what I wanted to focus on was that second thing, which was getting it to spread. I wanted to put more focus into marketing and promoting and less focus into getting more episodes out. So I quit my job, took it back to once a a month and just went full, full, full pedal to the metal on marketing. Speaker 3 00:06:02 But now you're back to, uh, every other week, right? Speaker 1 00:06:05 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because that is, um, that is what people want, is more content. So I was like, I I gotta figure out how to get back to there. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:06:12 Yeah. Well, I I'm glad you figured it out because, uh, it's, it's certainly a good show. So I wanna play the three clips that we've selected very soon. But first off, I wanna talk about accessibility, not the ADA definition of accessibility, but as in the friendliness of a podcast to the uninitiated. Darknet Diaries is a show that is well, about the dark side of the internet, hacking the dark web scammers, you know, things that sometimes take, well, oftentimes take more than a rudimentary knowledge of, of how the internet works. How much thought do you put into making it enjoyable for the people who aren't themselves part of Hacker Agriculture? Speaker 1 00:06:51 Yeah, I mean, I think what, what, before making it, I was like going around town and everyone was talking about hacking, right? My, my dentist, my barber <laugh>, you know, people at the grocery store, they're like, Oh, did you hear about this hack and that hack and all this hack stuff? And I'm just like, Everyone speaks this language and where is the show that's for them, where they wanna know how, how it went, but not get too, um, lost in in this stuff that they don't care about or the, you know, the confusing bits. But at the same time, I really wanted to show for me, which I'm deep into security, and I wanted to learn more about the whole story, but not be bored or treated like a, a kid when telling the story, right? So I, I kind of walk this, I'm right on the fence. I haven't picked a aside on is it for the tech tech junkies or the people who are non, uh, interested in tech stuff, <laugh> and I, yeah. Haven't picked a side. And I try to cater to both sides. And, and I think one of the things that you can do in, in the, in life is just figure out how to explain things in a great way. And people will appreciate that. And there's money to be made just in not alone. Speaker 3 00:07:57 Yeah. The ability to tell a story. It, it, it almost doesn't matter what the story is, it's the ability to tell it, right? And get people into it. I mean, I think a lot of things are fascinating if you've got the right person talking about it and finding a way to, to put the story together. And you've chosen Hacking the dark web, that kind of stuff, and insecurity. And, and I think it works, It works pretty well. We're gonna talk about some of the production stuff about the show in just a minute, But, but one more question before we get into the first clip. Just to start, um, you, Jack, are quite good at explaining the, let's call them intricacies and vagaries of the concepts that are discussed inside of the episodes of Dark Net Diaries. And, and let's take me for example, I've got a cis degree, but that was out of date when I got it a few decades ago. You know, some of the stuff, especially today, really needs that deep ex explanation and storytelling around it. So I'm curious, how do you battle with yourself to figure out what needs further explanation and what you need to just assume the listener brings to the party with them? Speaker 1 00:09:02 Yeah. Uh, you know, there was something I think Malcolm Gladwell was, was talking about when writing, which is when you're, when, whether or not you're gonna bring lingo into the story or not. And I think he suggested something like if you're, if you're kind of clueing them into the culture and getting them familiar with like how people talk, then it might be useful because then they kind of feel part of the group and they can talk in that way. But if you're just throwing lingo at them just because there's no actual reason, like it doesn't really help them feel like part of the culture or something, it's just kind of confusing, then you could probably leave it out. And so things like this go through my mind on whether or not Dwight, should I get into that technical bit? Should we go into what that means or not? And yeah, it's, it's hard to know, but I think that people are a lot more tech savvy than, than we get him credit for. Like, my father is terrible at computers, yet he follows some of the more technical stories I I do, and he appreciates them. So it's amazing what people actually understand. And I've been impressed with everyone. Speaker 3 00:10:04 I think that's a smart way to look at it. You know, don't, don't assume your audience is an idiot. You know, assume that they're going to follow along. And again, if you and, and you do have an ability to tell a story, well then they'll likely get it. It's, it's really the concept more than it is the actual key strokes pushed, right? You're not talking about that on a show, and I don't think that would be quite as fascinating as what you have today. So yeah, respect your audience. Assume that they have a certain amount of intelligence and they'll be able to follow the story as long as you tell it well, and then it's really on your shoulders. Yeah, Speaker 1 00:10:32 100%. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:10:33 Yeah. All good stuff. Now, we have pulled all three of these clips from the 109th episode of the show, which is called Team Poison. This first clip comes from very early in the episode. You're laying out an important fact for the listener, the fact that you wanted to do the story for many years, but knew it was way too complex to do on your own. I wanna talk about that decision, but let's first play that clip, Stuart. Speaker 1 00:11:11 This is a story that I've wanted to do for years, but I knew it was too complex for me to do on my own. So I waited to find the right person who could tell it. But then out of the blue, MLT messaged me on Twitter and we started talking about it. I asked if he wanted to tell his story on the show, and he said, Yeah. So I sent him a microphone and we hit record. Speaker 4 00:11:31 Yeah, I'm just wondering about, um, like modifying my voice and masking it. Speaker 1 00:11:36 So yeah, we're going to alter his voice, which might make it hard to understand him at faster speeds. If you're having trouble following him, I encourage you to make sure you're on one x speed when listening, cuz um, you'll be able to understand him better and you'll enjoy the show longer too. So MLT is what he likes to be, be called online, but I believe that's his initials, his real name is Matt, and he's been around computers all his life. Speaker 4 00:11:59 Yeah, I've got my first computer when I was around four, maybe. So yeah, I've pretty much grown up with computers. Speaker 1 00:12:07 By the time he was 12, he was taking more of an interest in computers. He was fascinated by how the computer is literally connected to the whole world and millions of other computers and people out there are all available right on his screen in his bedroom. Speaker 3 00:12:23 All right, let's go back to the beginning of that. And, and first off, I am a 1.5 X listener, and so I had to do it at one X speed. You were right. That is one of the ones that was <laugh>, right? For one x beat. No doubt. Um, Speaker 1 00:12:35 Yeah, it's just hard to hear. Um, Speaker 3 00:12:36 It so is yeah, that, that voice modulation, and I understand totally why he did that, But a lot of podcasters, I think, would have tried to tell the story on their own to recap it, but clearly you didn't. Heck, maybe even I would've done that, I don't know. But you chose not to, and I'm curious what was behind that decision. Speaker 1 00:12:54 Yeah. Or another option would be to cut his voice and have a voice actor just say what he told me in the interview. Right. But there is, so something that to me is so magical about hearing the person tell the story themselves. Because when we start getting into it, you hear the hesitations, you hear the quiver in their speech, you hear the, I don't know, like just the attitude they had or, or you pick up on what their culture, where they're from in the world. And all these little bits I just think are so amazing when you're listening to some of these stories because it gives you a much better sense of who the person is and, and where they come from and all this. So to me, it's just extremely important to keep the voice in as best I can. Um, in this case, he didn't want his voice in, so I had to alter it and try to keep, it was diff it was, it was a challenge. It was a big challenge. Um, but in a few cases I couldn't do it at all. But, um, you know, this is, this is something I always really want is to have the original voice in there. Speaker 3 00:13:52 Yeah. I mean, really comes down to what are you telling? Are you telling a story or are you telling, in this case MLT story or maybe it's the third part. Are you having, are you bringing forth MLT story? It it could be probably okay on its own, but much better I think with them there. And, and clearly you agree with that. Speaker 1 00:14:12 Yeah. I think in this case, there was an overarching story in MLT was involved with it, and he can kind of get us going in that direction and then he kind of breaks off later. So it's, I don't know, it's, I'm not sure exactly whose story I'm telling, but it is MLT story. I'm for sure telling that one. But there's more to it too. Speaker 3 00:14:28 Yeah, Yeah. Clearly there is also, um, early on you said that you shipped a microphone to mlt. Now, now I've done that as well, but I, you know, that wouldn't really occur, I think, to a lot of podcasters. I'm curious, when did you start making that decision? And, and also I'm curious what you sent him. Speaker 1 00:14:46 I've, I've only done that about three times now. Um, I sent him, I believe an, an Audio Technica ATR 2100 Speaker 3 00:14:54 Standard Mike. Yeah, Speaker 1 00:14:55 Yeah. Just the cheap USB one that anybody can use. He still struggled with it, getting it close to his mouth and stuff. And I was like, Man, I wish I was there just to shove it right up to your nose, <laugh>. But, um, but yeah, it was, um, it was just something that sometimes people don't have the equipment and in this case he, uh, he didn't have any equipment and I really wanted to get it as clear as I could. So I I, I, and we had some time, so I sh shipped it Speaker 3 00:15:19 To him. Yeah, especially if you're gonna do some of that voice masking, right? You need to start with something of quality to begin with mm-hmm. <affirmative> as opposed to just, you know, shouting at a laptop from across the room or using the earbud things, which is not the greatest possible. Um, so whose idea was it to change his voice? Speaking of that? Was that your idea? Did he demand it up front? What was the process like? Speaker 1 00:15:39 I mean, he, he wanted, he didn't want his real voice in there and I think it was just be mostly because he was embarrassed with the way he sounds. So I said, Okay, well the two options are we can, we can alter it in different ways, you know, pitch modulation and stuff, or we can just take it out and have voice actors do what you, uh, what you say. And I said, I kind of suggested, you know, it's easier to do the voice alteration because then, um, I don't have to get someone else to do all the work, right? So he said, Yeah, that should be good enough. Speaker 3 00:16:21 Okay. Let's move on to our second clip. This is where we realize that the story is about to get serious and pay attention to the end of the clip, Dear listener, because that's where my questions will start. Speaker 1 00:16:33 Okay. So Trick used some kind of exploit to get the contacts list that Tony Blair had on his email account. And that's interesting, but at first glance, this doesn't seem that important to me. He wasn't able to read Tony Blair's emails or anything. He just saw Tony Blair's contacts, names, phone numbers, email addresses. But this is actually a bit more serious than that. First of all, Tony Blair is the former Prime minister of the uk. So this was a high profile target. If Tony Blair against compromised, you know, the I five or G C H Q are gonna come in to investigate and where does that investigative trail start with some Twitter posts trick himself with posting this all over Twitter. And while a regular person can't see who owns a Twitter account, Twitter has some extra insight into this. They can see where the user connected from, what devices they used, what emails are registered to the account. And if the MI five is involved, it's probably pretty easy for them to get Twitter to turn over the information of whoever's posting to the team Poison Twitter account. But Trick hit his tracks very well, always using a proxy or VPN or even a tour client to connect to Twitter. But Twitter would only need him to mess up once for them to see his real IP Speaker 1 00:17:48 Internally within Teen Poison. This felt like a big win hacking the former Prime Minister. What would be next? The Queen herself. Well, they don't hack the Queen, but stay with us because when we come back it gets much more serious. Speaker 3 00:18:19 Now that was a well timed sponsor break <laugh> my friend, and a great, a great segue. That's, that's tough to get right. You know, it really is. I Speaker 1 00:18:27 Mean, yeah, I think I took a lot of, uh, clues from, um, Alex Bloomberg on how, how they do things over at Gimlet. I I think they do a good job. So I kind of stole some ideas. Speaker 3 00:18:37 Well, you know, that's the way to do it, right? Borrow from the people who do it better than, than anyone else. You know, I've been adding a sponsor break to the last like, 90 episodes of my own podcast and I'm still not sure I've got it right. But my question is, I'm thinking about that break for a second. And when you do, when you figure out things cuz you gotta pay the bills with these sponsor breaks, do you write the whole concept out from soup to nut and then find a way to shoehorn in those sponsor breaks? Or do you find when you're writing is there's a natural point for them? Speaker 1 00:19:04 Most of the time I've totally forget about it until like a few days before I have to publish, and then I'm like, Oh man, I gotta put a sponsor break in somewhere. Gotta Speaker 3 00:19:12 Pay the bills, man. Speaker 1 00:19:13 Yeah. And then I've gotta rewrite, Okay, uh, come back after the break or something, you know, and I gotta rerecord. But every now and then I get it right and I'm like, all right, yeah. Then we could put one right in a year and then that'll work great. <laugh>. Speaker 3 00:19:24 That's, that's fantastic. Yeah. Cause that's kinda the exact way, same way I do it. Right, Right. The whole thing. Like, oh damn, I have to put something in. I know I have to do it. Um, even though I do it every day, but still it's, it's hard to, to come back with that. A quick question about the sound design element that was there. Cuz there was a lot of sound design, obviously, you know, that music that was in Speaker 1 00:19:42 Each episode has about 19 songs on average. Speaker 3 00:19:45 Wow. And, and, and do you do that all on your own? Do you outsource sound design? Who's doing all this work? Speaker 1 00:19:49 Well, the first 40 episodes I did on my own, um, cuz I couldn't afford anything, you know, <laugh> Sure I had to do it yourself. Um, but now I do have a group of people to help and one, uh, actually two people are sound designers. I can, I can bounce between one or the other to do a sound for the episode was actually music for the episode. Speaker 3 00:20:07 Yeah, that's fantastic when you've got a team like that that can really come together and I think shows like yours that aren't in depth and intricate that need a whole lot of work. Look some things people are better at than you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> sound design is one of those things that takes a certain amount of skill and while Sure. Can you do it? Yeah, we can all drop a piece of music in there, but getting that just right, man, oftentimes that's better to hand off to a different brain, I think. Speaker 1 00:20:32 Well, I, I, I, I still like doing it and I think I'm good at it. Uh, it's just that I want to run real fast and in order to do that, I really need to start handing things off to other people so that I can continue my speed. And it's really a, a, it's really a treat to get, send something off to someone that's kind of, you know, thrown together with duct tape and then it comes back and it's all shiny and brilliant and I'm just like, Wow, this is exactly why I do this. It's one of my favorite parts is when the sound designer sends it back and I can hear the episode, uh, it's meant to be heard and make my decision, edit decisions and stuff, you know, I have to listen a lot. But that's one of my favorite moments is, is after the sound design, how does it sound? Speaker 3 00:21:16 Yeah. Now it, it's something beautiful to know, Hey, I thought this out. This is my idea, My constant in having to come back and when they, when they nail it, it's, it's really nice. It's nice to have, uh, la last bit about, about that clip we just played Tony Frien Blair, man. Wow. I mean, but you know, that's what I've noticed about your episodes is that not necessarily all over them, but many of them have some sort of aspect that you were just going, Are, are you kidding me? People have the stones to do this. It's just, it's just nuts. But maybe that's just part of hacker culture, right? Maybe it's just the bigger target is better. Speaker 1 00:21:51 This, this is what brings me to like, where, where we are is the idea that there can be a stor a true story that you ha you just say what I can't be, There's no way that's true. You, you did you really do that? And then, you know, I'm like reading from BBC article that says Tony Blair's account was hacked or something. You know, there's news clips and stuff and there's like, and this is the guy that did it. The MLT is the guy who did it. He's right here on the, on the show. And you interviewed like, Ha this is so crazy that, that we're actually listening to this. And so that's, that is the, the spirit of one of the big things that I love to pull out of this show is to just give you that moment of, I can't believe I'm hearing this. I can't believe this, this happened. And it's true. Right? And this is, um, I don't really like fictional shows so much, uh, podcasts because I, I just am like, anything could happen next. They could, whatever the writer wants to do, they could writer does, and that's just what happens. But here is the, here's we have to retell what they really had <laugh> that really had done. Speaker 3 00:23:07 All right. So, um, onto our final clip. Now MLT knows that the walls are closing in. The ultimate bad guys have been invoked. Let's play that clip. Stuart. Speaker 4 00:23:19 He would attempt to message me regularly, but I'd try and avoid any communications with him. Like, um, for one example, um, the first time he messaged me from Syria was, um, you linked me to our website, um, Rqa has been slaughtered silently. And basically what he asked was if I was capable of hacking that website, finding out who was running it, and then passing that information on dialysis. And he was also messaging me asking if I can get credit cards for ISIS to use. Speaker 1 00:23:50 Yeah. Jen Aid Hussein had joined isis, a terrorist organization, and ISIS loved him. He was particularly helpful at setting up computers and their online presence. And he started a new hacker group called the Cyber Caliphate to carry out cyber attacks on behalf of isis. Speaker 4 00:24:07 And he hacked the International Business Times. Um, he temporarily hacked the bbc, although he lost access very fast. Speaker 1 00:24:18 Janine quickly rose to be one of ISIS's most prominent and influential English speaking members, letting him run the English Twitter account and write articles. In fact, ATE became one of the best international recruiters for ISIS because he was able to connect with English speaking teams over social media and online in ways that other ISIS members just couldn't do. Speaker 3 00:24:40 So sure if, if hacking the British Prime Minister is not enough, now we're gonna start, go to work for isis. Um mm-hmm. Speaker 1 00:24:47 <affirmative>, and this is also where we learned that mlt, MLTs fa you know, best friend for all these years doing hacks with him is joined isis. Right? So it's, it's kind of like, well MLTs like, whoa, what did I get myself into? This is not something I wanna be part of. Yeah, Speaker 3 00:25:01 Yeah. And it, it's, you know, that went from that, oh my gosh, moment to wow, uh, this is kind of scary, you know, this whole process, I think from a listener's point of view, which I obviously am, it certainly was scary, but I'm curious about your point of view as the host and producer of the show. Did you have to really go through hours of tape with MLT to, to, and spend, I don't know, 10 times that amount of time to figuring out the story? D does, does it ever get to you when you're hearing these sort of intense moments? Speaker 1 00:25:32 Hmm, yeah. I mean, I, on this particular episode, I had a researcher spend, I think like three weeks or 40 hours worth of research to figure out as much as we could about this, um, thing, right? So about mlt, about team poison, about Janine Hussein trick. And then we went together through that, right? And I learned as much as I could about the situation. And, and the, the thing is, is that when you're trying to research like what's going on in isis, it's really difficult to get some straight answers and stuff, stuff. So it was, this is why I needed help to tell it at the beginning because I was like, there's so much that I can imagine that happen, but don't know really. And especially when you're getting into hacker culture, you don't wanna assume. You want to see if you can find one of the people in there that actually did it to tell you. Speaker 1 00:26:18 Um, and so yeah, I was really familiar with the story inside and out before we turned onto Mike. And uh, I don't think I was surprised with any of it. And in fact I was trying to lead to those surprises so that I could hear them firsthand. And it was, uh, I think it was a little bit, uh, of a struggle cuz MLT wasn't really forthcoming with a lot of this. And so he'd, you know, I I'd try to ask an open ended question, like, when, when did you first, you know, learn about trick joining ISIS or something? And he's just like, Oh, after, after this. And I was like, Well, <laugh> be a little and more, okay, but what was the thing that made you think that? You know? And I, I really had to get all the info out of him and it was, it was a bit tricky, but nothing that I couldn't handle <laugh> Speaker 3 00:27:02 Well, I mean, here you are trying to tell a great story, trying to get the bones and be a great story out together. And then you got this guy on the other end who's trying to look, he's already been in trouble, <laugh>, and he's just trying to, how much he doesn't wanna celebrate it and all, I mean, that's gotta be a, a big conflict between him and you and how the whole thing worked out. Well, Speaker 1 00:27:21 That's, that's half true Memo. T actually really wanted to get his story out there and he wa he, he contacted me to say, Is there a way that we can work together to get my story out there? Right? And so he was like, What do I need to do? What's the, what's the plan here? You know, and he was all game and it was just, uh, you know, his, his way of talking, him telling stories, this just wasn't as, some people just aren't storytellers. And so I just, I I was really happy that I knew where, where we needed to go with this question <laugh> to try to set 'em up in another way, or, you know, push 'em in that direction or whatever. And, um, you know, without all that extra research, it would've, uh, it would've been a little flat and, and, um, but yeah, I, I can still work with that even though, even though it was difficult, it was still something that I was like, this is, this is still really good audio because some of the stuff he, he does say is just fantastic and exactly what I was wanting him to say. Speaker 3 00:28:15 You mentioned at the beginning of that that you had somebody spend about 40 hours researching and understanding what was going on. I'm, I don't think, think I've asked this of other creators on the show, but I'm, I'm gonna ask you, um, you have a rough idea of how many hours you budget to put into your episodes. I mean, I know that's a little bit asking, a little bit like asking a painter how long it takes to create a masterpiece, and I, I'm not trying to do that, but this is a show about unpacking the creative process for podcasters. And some of our listeners might not have an appreciation for just how much work, something like this, a narrative show like this really takes. So what do you think? Speaker 1 00:28:51 Well, I think, um, the, if I were to make the episode, it would probably be about 30 to 40 hours, so that, what's that two weeks worth of worth of work? Is that Speaker 3 00:29:00 Right? If you're working, halftime the math, right? 40 hours a week usually. So, uh, yeah, but, Speaker 1 00:29:03 Oh, okay. No, well then it would be more like 50 hours. Sorry, I'm trying just, I'm trying to see what we like a week and a half worth of work, right? So researching, getting the guest sometimes takes years, honestly. But, you know, imagine if we had the guest all lined up, uh, and then getting the interview going and, and doing all the edits from there. Cuz there's like six rounds of edits and, you know, if, if an epi if an interview is two hours long, then it's hard to crunch that into like a quick, So, um, yeah, I mean, I would say it takes about a week and a half. Um, but what I have, uh, now is, you know, other people working on it. So I can, I can give someone like a no timeline take, you know, you do this in your as as a, as a on the side, as a side job. Here's some stuff to research, here's some stuff to sound design, whatever. And they can, they can do that when they have free time. And so it, it, it, it does take longer, um, when I have a bigger team. But yeah, I would say it is people hours. It's about 50 people hours. Speaker 3 00:30:00 You ever wish you'd go back in time and say, Nope, I'm gonna make this a simple, straightforward interview show with nothing else. Speaker 1 00:30:08 I, I mean, it would be nice to be Michelangelo and just be able to like wax poetic on the mic whenever I turn it on. But I am just not that kind of person. I will stumble over my words, I will say the wrong thing. I will quote the wrong quote. And I don't want any of that. I want, I want it to be a well produced show with the, with the sound and the audio and the, and the clips ready to go and the, and the facts, you know, researched and all this kind of stuff so that we can just go and, and I think that's such a fun way to present a, a story like this. Speaker 3 00:30:41 Now I know a little bit about you from the offline interactions you and I have had with each other. I guess online interactions we've had. You were pretty driven about this whole process. A lot of podcasters just kind of stumble into things, but, uh, I believe if my memory serves that you kind of had a plan and a purpose, uh, going, going into this. Do I, do I have that right? Well, Speaker 1 00:31:00 I mean, I've always wanted to be some sort of online creator or entrepreneur and I've had a big drive to like build my own empire or whatever. Uh, so yeah, I mean, I guess that's where it kind of started from. Speaker 3 00:31:21 A big thanks to Jack for sharing his creative processes behind Dark Net Diaries with me today. It's great to hear Jack Echo back to me. So many of the key things that make any podcast great, the ability to tell an interesting story, having an unwavering commitment to quality and possessing of a deep understanding of your show's audience. Jack does all of those things and more and it pays off on every episode of Dark Net Diaries. You can get all of the episodes of Dark Net diaries@darknetdiaries.com or just follow the link in the episode details. I have been your host for this, the second season of three clips Evo Tara, thank you so much for listening. You can find all the episodes of three clips on the website, three clips podcast.com, and you can support the show by telling a few dozen of your closest friends. Again, that's three clips podcast.com. This episode was produced and edited by Stuart Barefoot. Theme music was created by Tyler Litwin. Matt Madeiros is the executive producer of Three Clips. And if you can't get enough of me, follow me on Twitter where I'm at Evo Tara. And if you're a serious podcaster with an interest in making podcasting better, check out my daily short form podcast called Podcast Pontifications. And you can find that@podcastpontifications.com. Speaker 3 00:32:44 Three clips is a Casto original series. You can learn more@casto.com. All of those links are in the episode details. And now our bonus segment. Each episode we ask our guest for a podcast they'd recommend that isn't at the top of the charts. A show they'd like to show some love to. We call this segment, Play it Forward. Speaker 1 00:33:09 There is a person called Brendan Baker, and he started out with at Love and Radio making some, uh, uh, episodes there, but now makes the podcast Wolverine. I think the first season is the longest night and there's a second season. Now, what he does to record the Wolverine is, is just phenomenal. Like some of the stuff he'll do is use, uh, I think it's Boral Microphone, where he's got two microphones that he's using that are just about at the si at the, at the placement of both of your ears. And so he's using this around with the voice actors to make it seem like when the, when the, you know, character turns their head or moves into another room, cuz there's a different sound when you're in a room versus outside. And you can kind of hear that as a character walks outside and the, and the audio changes in just the most subtle, slightest way. And I love what Brendan Baker's doing in these kind of, uh, in this space. And so, yeah, uh, Wolverine has just got such excellent sound design that, uh, that's my first one. Speaker 3 00:34:16 And that wraps up another episode of Three Clips, a Casto original hosted by Mevo Tara. I truly believe that one of the best ways we can make podcasting better is by understanding what goes on inside the heads of our fellow podcasters. Thank you so much for joining me this season. Cheers.

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