Podcasting As Content Marketing With Ben Sailer From CoSchedule

Podcasting As Content Marketing With Ben Sailer From CoSchedule
Podcasting As Content Marketing With Ben Sailer From CoSchedule

Feb 20 2020 | 00:36:52

Episode 0 February 20, 2020 00:36:52

Hosted By

Stuart Barefoot

Show Notes

Content marketing has long been a primary way for brands to increase their website traffic and customer bases. And one of the best in the game is CoSchedule.

This software as a service (SaaS) tool allows marketers to organize, execute, and analyze every promotional campaign to get more done. To introduce CoSchedule to potential users, they create educational content about industry best practices and their product.

In this episode, we discuss how CoSchedule uses podcasting within their broader content marketing activities.

What Makes A Good Podcast?

Framed as "what is the biggest mistake most content marketers make?" led Craig and Ben to discuss what makes a good podcast.

The answer: quality over quantity. Often times, creators are in a rush to produce as much content as possible. Thinking the more I put out there, the more chances people will have to interact with my podcast. But in reality, spending more time creating engaging content is the better strategy.

Creating a good podcast comes down to investing more resources in-depth and useful pieces that don't just scratch the surface. Ben suggests asking yourself "is this the best resource available on this topic?" for every new piece of content. If your answer is no, it'll likely fall flat because users will go elsewhere to solve their problem.

For every episode of their Actionable Marketing podcast, the CoSchedule team aims to provide real-world insights and actions marketers can apply to their own work. If the episode has no takeaway, it's scrapped. Simple as that.

But remember, making a great podcast has a learning curve. It'll take more time to research, produce, and polish episodes that go deeper but there's a payoff. CoSchedule's content sees passive visits and listens for months and even years after it's published because they we were willing to invest the time upfront. That ongoing engagement is what it takes to bring a podcast from good to great.

Focusing on evergreen content is a great way to squeeze more engagement over time from a single episode. Timeless content stays fresher longer, driving more listens long after it's first published.

How Podcast Content Complements Your Marketing Mix

Content marketing historically only included written mediums but audio content has recently entered the scene. Craig and Ben dug into how CoSchedule thinks about their podcast content and it differs from their other channels.

At a high level, CoSchedule creates content for marketers. Across written, spoken, and social content, the common theme is helping marketing professionals solve a problem. But their podcast content ideas have a slightly different spin than their other channels.

Content ideas for written and social platforms are typically focused on their SEO value or virality. The goal is to capitalize on keyword search volume or lead a trending social conversation to reach new customers. But podcasting allows CoSchedule to explore questions that can't be positioned against these standard measures of success. Oftentimes, episodes solve problems listeners don't know how to search for or answers questions they didn't think to ask.

"Podcasts are a powerful way to connect with an audience for 20, 30, even 40 minutes," Ben says. Compared the minutes it takes to engage with an article or social post, podcasts establish a stickier connection. There's more opportunity to explore a topic in a conversational way with added personality. By not focusing on traditional marketing metrics, the Actionable Marketing Podcast helps produce brand loyalists and keep CoSchedule top of mind for potential customers.

Podcasts offer the opportunity to become part of someone's routine. They may not visit your site each time a new article is published but they might habitually tune in to your new podcast content.

Podcast Driving Conversions

A common struggle for marketers leveraging podcasts as part of a content marketing strategy is attribution. Meaning, how can we assess if the podcast is driving customers to our business?

How do we track someone who tunes into an episode, visits the website, and ultimately purchases the product. Moving between platforms and the amount of time between each action adds to the challenge.

One way that Ben suggests to look at this is simply the "are we better off now than before the podcast?". This is a binary, more simplistic way of looking at your organization's objective. But it does provide a clear yes or no answer and can be applied to any business metric.

Given the complexity of the problem, we don't have the perfect answer. So this is where we throw it back to you, the listeners. What are you doing to attribute podcast listenership to activities happening on your site, in your business, or with your brand? Tell us in the comments below!

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 00:06 Hello and welcome back to the audience podcast. I'm your host Craig Hewitt from Castillo's. When it comes to content marketing or inbound marketing, there are a few names that are more well known than CoSchedule. Uh, the popular software as a service or SAS application that helps marketers organize and be more productive is one of the leaders that I look to in creating what is I think, really great content both written and in their podcast, their actionable marketing podcast has been going on for three plus years now and as an interview style format where they bring on some of the best and brightest minds in marketing from across the board and all different genres of marketing to talk about what's working, what they're seeing. Uh, and what some of the hottest trends are in digital marketing. And this episode I have on Ben Saylor from CoSchedule to talk about how he runs their podcast, where it fits in with the rest of their marketing activities and their content, uh, how he thinks about the, the types of conversations he has in the podcast versus in other types of content that they create at CoSchedule. And some of the best practices that he's seen. Again over several years of running actionable marketing podcast and how things have changed over time with them refining their approach to the podcast. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Ben Saylor from CoSchedule. Speaker 2 01:28 All right. Ben Saylor from CoSchedule. How are you doing? Hey, I'm doing great. How about yourself? Doing great, thanks. Uh, so yeah, tell us about the actionable marketing podcast. Yeah, so the actual marketing podcasts Speaker 3 01:41 is a interview series that we've been doing at CoSchedule for three years, maybe closer to four at this point. Essentially what the actual marketing podcast does for us as a, it gives us a really great opportunity to, uh, talk to marketing professionals in the field and, uh, to get a sense of what kinds of challenges they're facing, what kind of problems they're solving, and then just being able to have really great conversations with them to, you know, draw out, you know, actionable advice and insights that listeners can then apply to their own work. Something we try to emphasize is, um, you know, making sure that the listener is always going to be able to take something away from it that um, you know, they can go like, do you know, or, or apply. Speaker 2 02:34 So I reached out to you because uh, you know, following kind of online marketing and content content marketing. Yup. Uh, CoSchedule is, is kind of one of the leaders that, that I think a lot of us look up to and the quality and the amount of content that you guys create and it has to drive just millions of page views I would guess back back to your site. And that of leads all the way up to, to new trials for your software and paying customers and things like that. The question, I think a lot of people who have a brand that want to add podcasting to the content they're already creating, so they have a blog or they have a YouTube channel or something like that is how do you, how do you view podcasting in the mix with all the other stuff that you're doing from a content perspective? Speaker 3 03:20 Essentially the podcast kind of started as just being another means of just being able to, you know, get, get ourselves in front of people who might be interested in CoSchedule and might be interested in the types of content that we share in the types of topics that we cover with our content as far as where it fits strategically in the mix. What, what a podcast does really well is it gives you an opportunity to really hold someone's attention. Um, and if you can make a podcast become like a habit for somebody or like something that they look forward to every day or every week or whatever your, your cadence or your schedule is like, that can be very powerful in terms of just building a connection, you know, with a listener. And so where we kind of see it is maybe the best way to put it as it's really just like an engagement tactic maybe kind of, um, I don't know if thought leadership is quite the right word, but it's something that gives us an opportunity to build a connection with our audience where we've got their attention for 20, 30, 40 minutes versus, you know, maybe a few minutes on a blog, a couple seconds on a tweet, you know, things like that. Speaker 3 04:37 It's, um, that's really where, um, you know, I think if you were to ask somebody else in our company how they feel about it, they might give you a little bit different answer. But, so my mind, I think that that's really where the value is, is just, it really lets you become, you know, a, a part of people's routine and something that they, they come to value. And then there's all kinds of like secondary benefits that come along with that, which is like brand affinity and brand loyalty and just really staying, you know, top of mind. What's your audience? Speaker 2 05:09 You mentioned before that the podcast is a really good excuse or a way to have interesting conversations with you know, some of the leading marketers kind of in the, in your space. Do you view the types of content that you cover in the podcast differently than you would in written content or social media? Meaning do you talk about different kinds of stuff there and do you think that's kind of universally applicable to most podcasters? Speaker 3 05:35 I mean it's still covering topics within the greater sphere of marketing, right? But something else that podcasts really allow us to do is it lets us kind of just talk about things that people maybe have questions about or things that you know, listeners might struggle with themselves without to worry about like an SEO strategy or trying to do something flashy that's going to catch people's attention on social media or anything like that. And so in that sense, I would say that it opens up the topics that we can talk about a little bit. Like, I mean we're not getting like too crazy. I mean, it's marketers talking marketing and that's what our content is. No matter where you happen to find us, if it's on our website, our blog, social, email, podcast, anything. But what I appreciate about like podcasting is that you, you can completely just ignore chasing keyword volumes or things like that and just really get into, you know, taught talking about things that an audience might find valuable, but they wouldn't even know what words they would use to go searching for those things. Speaker 3 06:54 You know, like in that sense, podcasts really offer a great opportunity to create something that just makes a light bulb go off in a person's head where like, I didn't know what, you know, I, you would have called that before, but that's like exactly like the problem, like this is very relatable or like this is very pertinent to what I'm doing. Um, and it's just not a question I ever thought to ask. And I think too, it's, there's something about podcasts that are just like the conversational nature of, you know, I like the interview format is, I mean it gives it a little more, a little more personality and a little more relate-ability than just reading words off a page. It does open things up topic wise I would say for sure. And I mean just in the sense that like you're not beholden to the whims of Google. You know, as long as you're, you're able to capture your audience's attention, you can really focus just purely on offering value. Speaker 2 07:59 Yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but that certainly is true. I talk about stuff on my podcast that I wouldn't ever write about, certainly just because it isn't the right medium for it, but also, yeah, structurally. And you think about SEL when you write for better or worse, I guess. But I don't ever think about that in a podcast and just think about telling an interesting story. And that's the most important thing for, for me, kind of entertaining and providing value to my audience, I feel like. So yeah, I like that. So, so just to take a step back and kind of to frame CoSchedule, so CoSchedule is a, a SAS application, so online software for marketers, uh, to help kind of organize and plan and execute, uh, their content marketing strategy. Is that pretty accurate? Speaker 3 08:41 Yeah, yeah, I would say that's very close to accurate. The official company align. We are a family of agile marketing products that helps teams get organized, do more work and um, makes her team's happy. It's kind of a, we have like our, what we call like our marketing like software suite. And within that suite is a, a number of different products that are all focused on the idea of helping marketers get organized. Um, whether that's getting your, your content organized, uh, your workflows or social media marketing assets. Um, more all of the above, whatever the case may be. There's a lot of different use cases, um, that it can apply to. But the unifying theme is helping you get organized. Speaker 2 09:31 So I I, you know, mentioned before a lot of folks kind of in our world look to, to, to CoSchedule and your blog and, and your content as, as kind of the epitome of what all of all of us should be doing with our content because a lot of us are, are missing the boat and not doing things as well as we could from, from what you guys see. Um, what are some of the things that not just SAS applications or online brands but just kind of people marketing in the digital realm overall you think they they miss out on or do wrong. That could be like a, an easy fix, uh, that can kind of get some ROI. Speaker 3 10:12 That is such a good question and it's, it's a really big question too. And um, I think that maybe the way that I like to frame it is kind of like what are the missing opportunities? Um, cause I, I kind of feel like with content marketing, like everything is really about, you know, constant like continued improvement. And I think it kind of helps me a little bit to think about it more in those terms rather than a strict right versus wrong, you know, binary. Okay. Especially since you know what's right for one company or what's right for one industry or vertical with content marketing might not be right for another. Um, and I think sometimes I see that kind of being the source of disagreements where people are just kind of talking past each other about what they feel, you know, with the best practice or whatever the case may be. Speaker 3 11:08 And you know, one of the biggest things that I think that I see though is like an emphasis on quantity over quality. Um, a big part of why we're able to do what we do at CoSchedule was the resources that we have is we'll put a lot of time and to just producing one really good piece. Um, I mean the, the amount of time that we'll put into a blog post alone is exponentially greater than what we know to be the average for the industry. Um, and it's a slower road going that way. But like, once you kind of get the flywheel moving, um, you know, it gets easier to, you know, kind of push yourself to, you know, really invest in creating like, you know, very in depth, you know, very useful content that does more than just scratch the surface of the topic, if that makes sense. Speaker 3 12:09 Um, and I think that it depends too. Like, I mean, I, I kind of have to put a small caveat on that because like, within like the SAS marketing space, like it's bloody water, you know, for content. And if what you're putting out, if you don't feel yourself though, like what you're putting out is these are offering something different or if you don't feel that like it is objective, really the most useful thing on that topic that you can put out there, it's very likely to, you know, the fall flat and it's, yeah, I think it makes it imperative, like if your own industry, I mean, if like for whoever, like anyone who's listening to this, um, you know, even if you're marketing something in a, like, you're not like cos marketing marketing software to marketers, you know, um, let's say that like, let's say that like, you're in a similarly competitive space. Speaker 3 13:06 Um, I would be willing to bet that you're gonna see better results faster by taking more time, creating your content rather than trying to rush things out the door. So I think, how much time do you guys spend on a single blog post? Yeah, it's a good question. Um, I mean it takes an entire week, you know, for the team. Um, probably, but I mean, if I broke it down into like an hourly count, I mean for me, if I were writing a post and I'm not writing as much as I used to, but if I were writing posts, I would probably block off three business days for that. And there's something to keep in mind with that though is, I mean there's going to be meetings mixed in there and you know, it's not, you're sure it's not going to be the only thing that I'm going to be able to just like block off everything else and just do that one thing. Speaker 3 14:02 But it's gonna stretch out over the span of about three days and then it'll go over to a designer and they'll work it in with their other tasks and design the, the imagery and the, you know, the visual components of it maybe within the span of like a business day. And then, you know, after that there's no formatting and you know, checking for, for SEO considerations and things like that. So I would say it takes about a week, but putting that amount of time. And I think another caveat with this too is that, that putting that amount of time in something makes sense. What's something that's evergreen, right? So if we focus very heavily on, you know, creating like a lot of evergreen content so that we get the maximum amount of return for the effort that we put into it so we can publish what we feel is a very strong piece of evergreen content on a topic. Speaker 3 14:59 And then that'll continue to drive traffic and leads, you know, for, for monster years. Um, because we put the extra effort into it upfront and just doing that over and over and over again, it just builds and builds and builds over time. Um, so yeah, I would say like that that's about how much time it takes. And I think that that's probably daunting. You know, for a lot of people it might not even be realistic, but I think there's a question you've got to ask is, you know, like, are you happy with your results right now? And if you're like, I mean, I think it's worth asking yourself. Like, would you be open to, um, you, you know, like doing what you can, you know, to like give your team, you know, a little bit more time, a little more breathing room to produce something that is going to offer more value to our readers and what you can knock out in an hour maybe. Speaker 2 15:56 <inaudible> I think that it's, uh, it's certainly true in the podcasting world too. I mean, I think we're, we're, we're talking about written content like in a blog, but I think in podcasting, the, the, um, the competition for listeners' attention is very real these days, no matter what niche you're in. And our, our, our previous guests talked a lot about, you know, honing your craft and learning to tell a good story and finding the interesting stories to tell and, and that if you're not doing all of those things, you're going to get killed and people are just gonna not listen to your podcast. And I think that's, um, podcasting is, uh, daunting enough to start with. You have to have a Mike and what's an RSS feed and where's your hosted, all this kind of stuff. Right? But then like the think, okay you can't just podcast, you have to have a killer podcast. Speaker 2 16:43 Uh, is is tough for people to hear. But what I would say is, you know, get started, get started, get the show launched and then gotta iterate from there continually start to make a better and better show. Or if you're blogging, start blogging and then, you know, spend a day and then it's been two days and it's been three days and then get graphics and all these kinds of things. Cause I think, I mean we, from a business perspective, we see a ton of people come in and say, I want to start a podcast. It's going to be the greatest thing. And then they will go out and spend $3,000 on a microphone and never record an episode. And you're like, Whoa, this is you. You have a misalignment of priorities here. Like the most important thing is to record your first episode and you can just use dry phone and it's going to stink. But at least you start it and then you can get the $3,000 microphone after that. Why Speaker 3 17:35 a point too. And I think it's very, I think it's true with anything like any kind of creative endeavor, you know, like you've got to start somewhere and like you're probably gonna have to start small, but like give yourself, you know, like a goal or a vision of something great that you're building toward, Speaker 2 17:55 you know, one of the arguments for, for producing less content and spending more time on it. So the content is really great is also that many of us don't take the amount of time we should to promote that content. So if you do go out and create 10 times 10 X content, that's really great and above and beyond everything else out there, you should spend the time to let everybody know about it. What have you found kind of specific to podcasting as I'm sure it's a little different than the rest of your content or maybe it's not, I dunno, but, but what have you found specific to podcasting that has helped kind of spread the word about your show? You know, email, social, whatever. Speaker 3 18:32 I think as far as promotion goes, really all that we've done. I mean, I think there was some email in the early goings with it and then obviously we promote every episode on social media. Um, but really what we, what we do is like what everybody does is we just encourage people to subscribe on Apple podcasts and we post every episode on our blog with the full transcript. And I mean, the, the amount of promotion that we do is, it's pretty basic. I think there's, I, I definitely think that there's more that we can be doing. I just feel a need to be honest with your audience about that. But I think, um, at the very least with like promoting a podcast, I think it's good to, um, you know, just like at least make sure you're doing the basics. But I think too, um, we're very fortunate to have a lot of great guests come on our show and we get a lot of promotion that way too. Speaker 3 19:34 Um, because if we can get, just get like, like all of our guests are, are awesome, but if we get a guest that's got a good sized audience and they can share an episode, you know, with their audience and that helps us leverage, um, it's a lot of promotional benefits that way without, it's like naturally, you know, just like organically. That's just something that, you know, people are going to feel compelled to do, you know, like they're on this podcast, they want to, you know, they want to promote it. We do. So I think that helps us a lot. Is that a, is that like an expert Speaker 2 20:05 <inaudible> that you set with the guests at a time is Hey, we're gonna do this podcast and you'd go out in three weeks, we, you know, we will send you the stuff, please share it out on social media and in your email and everything. Or is it kind of a, an afterthought after the episode goes out? Speaker 3 20:18 We don't really try to like set that as an expectation. Um, for people. I mean for us, I think just bringing them on the show and just getting us as much time as it takes for us to just have a good conversation. Not really ask for anything more than that from people, but it might not be a bad idea, you know, even just come to think of it just like, Hey, like if you could promote the show, that'd be great. But yeah, I mean we, we certainly don't try to put any pressure on anybody to do. Sure. Speaker 2 20:48 Uh, I know that, you know, in talking with other podcasters, some, it varies greatly. Some say the same kind of thing that you do, which is kind of what we say is when the episode goes out, we send our guests an email. It's a, Hey, here's the, here's the link, here's the image. If we do like an audiogram, so here's the, here's the audiogram, you know, we'll be sharing it out and mentioning you in our social, and if you could share it too, though, it'd be great and leave it up to them obviously. Um, but I know some people say if you're coming on my show, the expectation is you will share it out here and here and like this and like this. And that's, yeah, that's, that's cool. I mean that's a different, different strokes for different folks. Um, but I think the, for me, the message there is kind of, it is up to you as the host, right. And like, and there's no rules. Yeah. Yeah. And so kind of whatever it goes by, I think, yeah, this guest cross promotion kind of cross pollination of your audience is a super way to grow the listenership for a podcast and having an interview based show like yours and like this, uh, lends itself to that a lot. Yeah. Speaker 3 21:50 Yeah. And it, it, it lends itself to that I think just like very organically. I think that's really like the way that we've, we've kind of watched the show grow. I would agree to that. You know, a show is like, your show is your show. You can run it the way that you want and set the expectations that you want and as long as your guests are amenable to that. And I think you're all good Speaker 2 22:15 having a, having a guest based show, I would love to hear what your process looks like for identifying a potential guest, inviting, booking all, you know, all the way through recording. Fascinated to hear that. Speaker 3 22:29 Yeah. So we get guests on our show through a variety of different means, um, for one being in the SAS marketing space and, um, just being a brand that has, you know, pretty wide visibility in our industry and, um, just from naturally kind of coming to know a lot of people in our industry, you know, just naturally, um, it's been pretty easy for us to just kind of ask people that we have like a warm contact with like, Hey, would you like to come on the show? Uh, so we've gotten a lot of guests that way. And it's been surprising to me how receptive people are to that, which I mean, I guess for them, I mean, there's no reason not to, you know, like if you love doing marketing and someone's going to give you an opportunity to talk about it for 30 minutes and ostensibly promote yourself, like, why not, you know, like that's just this Encore. Speaker 3 23:27 Everybody, um, you know, for us, for them, for the audience, um, you know, everybody wins. And so that's been like a little bit surprising to me, but people have been really, really great so far. Um, so I'm very appreciative for that. Um, also we just occasionally like people will just like reach out to us and just be like, Hey, like I'm so I have a podcast, you know, would you mind having the honest and guests? Um, so we've gotten guests that way and then some folks are, um, a bit more organized. What on the professional PR front where they'll actually have, um, I don't know if you would call them like a traditional, like an agent or like a PR rep. But they essentially fill that kind of role where they'll pitch their guests to shows and you know, if I think they're a good guest and they've got interesting things to say, like I will totally bring those people on the show. Speaker 3 24:25 Those are probably the three main ways that we get guests on. And sometimes too, like even if we're just looking for collaborating with someone at another company just on something else, like if it's like a guest blog post or something, um, in the course of that conversation you might just be like, Hey, you want to come on our podcast or something like that. I'm just pretty organically, you know. So, yeah, I've though I would say that those are the, those are all the, at least the most common, uh, avenues of getting guests onto the show that we have. But really if, if someone, you know, works in marketing and they have interesting things to say, we want them on the show. Speaker 2 25:08 Interesting. I think, uh, I think, you know, for folks who are running, especially if they've been running them for a long time, uh, an interview based show, they have this kind of dread that Wells up eventually to say, I've done 250 episodes. I've talked to everybody I know and everyone they know. And now like I got to go to the well again and I don't know where my next guest is going to come from. Uh, so I mean that's, that's cool that the kind of reach that you have as a brand makes it easier for you. Um, and I would agree. I mean we have, we have a decent amount of contacts and the, you know, marketing and podcasting space. So it's been relatively easy for us to get folks on as well. But I'm, I'm kind of projecting ahead a couple of years to say, you know, I know a hundred people I could probably interview, but then like it might get more difficult. So, Speaker 3 25:56 yeah. Well, and you know, too, if it's been a year or two since you've had somebody on, you can totally bring them on again. Like I, I you probably don't want to do it too much, but Speaker 2 26:08 yeah, because a lot of folks have multiple things that they could talk about in your kind of subject domain. Right? Speaker 3 26:17 Yeah. And especially if people, um, happen to have something new. Um, and if there are deaths that we feel that like people would be particularly excited to hear from again. Yeah. We'll bring them back on like no problem. Not something that we do super often, but you know, on occasion for sure. Speaker 2 26:35 I think for, for folks running, you know, running a business, running a brand, um, we have a lot of customers who are churches and religious organizations. One of the, one of the questions a lot of folks have is, you know, how do I tie back my podcast to, I'll say my business objective. Cause again, we're not all businesses but my organizational objective, which is, you know, getting more people to church on Saturday or Sunday or to bring in new blog readers or to have people sign up for my software product or increased donations, whatever it is. And traditionally this is really hard, right. To say like, how do I bring somebody from walking the dog on their iPhone back to my website to do a thing that is like my goal, um, is hard just in general. And then once you're kind of cross platform, uh, from, you know, a podcasting app to your website, it gets even more difficult. Is there anything you have done or even seen other people doing that you think helps this kind of attribution question? Speaker 3 27:33 I think you're absolutely right that it's very difficult to track whether or not you're getting someone to go directly from a podcast to a website or going from listening to a podcast to taking like the physical action of going to a physical location or, or anything like that. Like whether that's you're out for your Sunday walk and you got your headphones in and you're listening to your podcast and that just like inspires you to go to church that day. You know, and it's, it's very, very difficult to directly attribute, you know, like, like your podcast. So person taking that action. Right. And the more, the more steps in that process are you expect someone to take, the more opportunities there are from the drop-off, right? Like say if you're wanting to try to move someone from your podcast or website, well once again, so your website, like what's the next thing for him to do? Speaker 3 28:32 Like if they have to like fill out a form or if they have to go from like one page to another page, each time you add like another step where you add more friction, there's going to be, you know, more and more drop-off. Right. Where I find podcasts valuable personally as like I was saying earlier, it's just you've got someone, you have 100% of somebody's attention for like a half hour. That's super, super valuable. Not many things can give you that, you know, aside from like maybe like, um, I dunno maybe if you have like a video show or something like that, but that that to me is, is maybe good enough. You know, like I really would like to be able to say that increasing podcast downloads increases trial signups or demo calls. You know, because for us those would be, you know, converge and steps that we would be looking for as a, you know, like a software company, like a subscription based software company. Speaker 3 29:38 Um, say like for example like if it was a church they probably want, you know, their attendance to go up. Um, and so they would probably in order to justify spending time creating a podcast, you want to be like falling and we're putting time into this, but you know, are we actually getting more people through the door? You know, like I understand the, the need to be able to connect the two but the best that you might be able to do I think without driving yourself absolutely insane. Trying to figure out how exactly to do that. I think there's two things that you could try say like if, if it was a church or if it was like any kind of thing where like you're trying to get someone to go to a physical location where you can actually hand them a survey. It might not be super scientific, but you might be able to say like, Hey, like what brought you in today? Speaker 3 30:27 Was it podcast, website? Um, yeah, whatever else you might have. Um, something else too I think is that you might be able to look at just like behavior on like, like if you're looking at this more from like a digital marketing perspective and you were just looking at behavior on your website, you could maybe look at like, well before we have a podcast, this is kind of where the numbers were at afterwards. This is where, you know, metrics X, Y and Z are at. And so we can maybe like loosely correlate that having this show has helped move the needle on these things. But I mean if, if there is a way, you know, to directly tie, you know, like podcasts, downloads or listens or subscribers to, to business growth, I would love to hear it. If anybody has answers, feel free to reach out. I would love to hear from you. Um, I might even want to bring you on our own podcast to talk about that cause, um, I, I have a feeling that that's probably, I mean it sounds like that is a very common question. Speaker 2 31:39 Yeah, I asked that question a lot and nobody has a great answer on a global basis. Are you kind of better off than you were before starting the podcast? And if the answer is yes, then it's a good thing and keep going and the answer is no, then you know, you've got to figure out a better way to do the show or pivot somehow. Um, so, so Ben, if I, if I put you in your DeLorean, uh, and took you back, what would you do differently? Speaker 3 32:04 What would I do differently? Uh, I, if there's anything that I would do differently, I think I like, maybe I would put it in terms like this, like if there's something that I would like to experiment with in the future and I don't know if it would be with our current podcasts or maybe starting another podcast or something where it would be appropriate. Um, but kind of experimenting with the idea of breaking out of the interview format and maybe doing something more narrative driven. That's something that I think, um, I don't know if you're familiar with Jay Acunzo. Um, and his show one thinkable I think is <inaudible> is a fantastic example of that. And it's something that I hear him talking about a lot, you know, it's like the idea of like, creative, like a show and trying to capture people's, just like trying to earn people's attention that way. Speaker 3 32:55 And I think that there's something to that because I think that interview shows, uh, like, like ours and like this one that you're doing right now, I think these are super valuable. Um, because I think that in a lot of cases what people are looking for is like, can you please help me figure out how to do something, you know, I don't know how to. Right, right. But like as a marketer, like you know, a lot of us are asked to wear a lot of different hats and like even if your skillset and your role is fairly specialized, there's still gonna come a time where like, like your learning has never done. And so any resource that you can really get your hands on that continually helps you improve is like super valuable. And I think interview shows are really great for that. Interview shows also really gives you the opportunity to just kind of like get inside the minds of like people that you might not ever really get the opportunity you know to otherwise. But I think with that, well I think like what's anything, if, if everybody is kind of doing somewhat similar things, even if they have different takes on it, at a certain point it becomes harder to stand out. And so it kind of seems like maybe taking a more narrative approach might be one idea that not a ton of like brands have necessarily jumped onto yet. And so that's just, it's interesting to me. I have no idea what that would look like for us. Or how it would go, but I think it's an interesting idea, Speaker 2 34:28 done a bit of kind of narrate, narrating our interviews for this podcast and the results are massive. Um, and, and the popularity of those episodes versus the ones where we just take it, you know, clean it up and ship it out as an interview, but it is super duper hard and it takes an enormous amount of time. But I think that's kind of with the ethos of what you guys do, what you know, the, the type of content you create. Speaker 3 34:52 Yeah, for sure. I think that like doing that like narrative type storytelling just requires a totally different skillset. You know, doing like a really good interview show and even just doing like a good interview show is not easy in itself. And I feel like doing something more like more narrative driven, I feel like is probably even a bigger challenge than that. But no, I think that's part of what makes it interesting too though. I don't know. I don't, I don't really know what the future holds for us just yet, but, um, but it's a thought that I just kind of have constantly rattling around in my brain. Speaker 2 35:30 No, I think you're, I think you're on the right track. I mean, it goes back to what you were saying about written content before that if you're not making better content than everyone, you're in trouble. And if you're an interview show and that's better interviews, that's, that's what it is. If you're an interview show and it's introducing a more narrative format, then that's what it is because that makes you stand out. And for a lot of people, that's a better story rather than just you asking questions and people giving you answers. So yeah, I think you're on the right track there. And implementing that is, is a whole nother story, but, but I think you're on the right track with how you're looking at it. Yeah. Cool, Ben. So for folks who want to kind of check out more about CoSchedule and the actionable marketing podcasts, where's the best place to go? Speaker 3 36:07 Uh, so if you are interested in checking out our podcasts, um, you can just search, you know, actual marketing podcast on Apple podcasts or pretty much any podcasts service, uh, use. Uh, you can also find us on our blog@justcoschedule.com slash blog or if you want to learn more about our product and what we're all about, you can just check out our website too. Speaker 2 36:31 Okay, awesome. We'll include those links in the show notes for this episode. Very cool. Awesome. Awesome. Ben, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. I appreciate it and it's great. Speaker 3 36:40 Yeah, yeah. I you, this is a really fun conversation.

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